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#rhrt: 07/06/09 18:54 <rthc> kleinjt__: so, licenses for versions of eagle that don't limit board size are abusrdly expensive.
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#rhrt: 07/06/09 21:57 <kleinjt__> rthc: yse, I've heard education discouts are ~1/2 price
#rhrt: 07/06/09 22:00 <kleinjt__> damn, yeah, expensive
#rhrt: 07/06/09 22:01 <kleinjt__> the nonprofit one gives twice the usable area, that seems like lots
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#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:21 <rthc> yeah, i wanted eurocard sizes though, so 100x160
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:23 <kleinjt__> well, the price for that isn't that crazy
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:24 <rthc> no?  it's been a while since i've looked, i meant to say something about this around two weeks ago
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:33 <kleinjt__> well, $125 instead of ~$700
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:33 <tommost> >.<
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:34 <kleinjt__> max size is 100x160
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:36 <kleinjt__> speaking of things from weeks ago, do you want the avrisp mailed?
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:48 <rthc> yeah, but i'll deal with that later this week
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:48 <rthc> i still need to order a dev board
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:48 <rthc> we should have an online sorta meeting at some point this week
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:49 <tommost> Sounds good.
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:49 <rthc> no, not you
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:50 <tommost> 
ACTION walks away dejectedly

#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:50 <rthc> the software "team" can hold a meeting sometime though too, heh heh
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:51 <tommost> 
ACTION smacks a gavel

#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:51 <tommost> Roll call!
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:51 <tommost_lug> Here!
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:51 <tommost> Here!
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:51 <tommost> 
ACTION smacks a gavel

#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:51 <tommost> Meeting concluded!
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:52 <rthc> you guys have awesome meetings
#rhrt: 07/06/09 23:52 <tommost> Thank you.
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#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:40 <rthc> robotics!
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:40 <rthc> let's talk
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:40 <rthc> kleinjt: get in here
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:41 <kleinjt> rthc:
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:42 <rthc> hey, cool
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:42 <rthc> ok, so, robotics
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:43 <rthc> specifically electronics
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:43 <rthc> so, what were our major problems this year?  let's get a list going
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:44 <rthc> boards spread all over the place and mounted upside down
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:44 <rthc> board mounted connectors which offer no connection integrity
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:44 <kleinjt> hand assembled cables, running out of cable-making materials
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:44 <rthc> very very shoddy cables for critical components (the encoder cables come to mind)
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:44 <rthc> using solely serial for all the boards, using all the serial ports on the computer
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:45 <rthc> no consistency for the motor power cables (screw terminoal for ground, fast-on for the posstivite)
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:45 <rthc> (very high latency here, so i can't actually see what i'm typeing, i apologize for any errors)
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:47 <rthc>  no monitoring for the batteries, leading to us not knowing how much remaining life we had for either battery...
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:47 <kleinjt> use of poorly milled circuit boards with hacks to keep them functional
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:47 <rthc> inadequate charging situation
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:47 <kleinjt> lack of wifi on robot
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:48 <kleinjt> (after you left, we just stuck my wrt54gl on the robot, and things were much happier)
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:48 <rthc> yeah, that was a good call.  we should either do that or maybe get a wifi card that can function in AP mode
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:49 <rthc> uh, no physical disconnect for the motor power
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:49 <kleinjt> lack of an easy way to plug the robot into line power
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:50 <rthc> indeed, that's kinda covered in the charging situation as well.
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:50 <kleinjt> rthc: I think a wireless router would be nicer, since it would avoid driver issues, and wouldn't disconnect everyone every time the computer rebooted
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:50 <rthc> kleinjt: ok, i could go for that
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:50 <rthc> so, any other main issues?  those are the main ones i can see
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:51 <kleinjt> Does the flash card count as electronics?
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:51 <rthc> no
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:52 <rthc> ok.  so, time to talk about what we're doing to fix these...
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:54 <kleinjt> ban use of nonpolarized connectors for everything but the avr isp connector?
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:55 <rthc> well, so there's a start
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:55 <rthc> non-polarized wasn't the only issue though
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:55 <rthc> we still had cables all over the place, and they didn't actually lock with much integrarity
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:55 <rthc> wow, that was a bad misspelling
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:56 <rthc> http://nopaste.com/p/abob2Aligb
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:56 <kleinjt> which ones? the molex and the 2 pin headers didn't seem that bad
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:56 <rthc> kinda grouped together there
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:56 <rthc> i didn't like the 2 pin headers much, they didn't feel solid
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:56 <rthc> i have no problems with the molex, those were pretty nice
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:57 <kleinjt> unrelated note: a few teams used right angle powerpole connectors with an extra retaining wire going over the top, those looked neat
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:57 <rthc> yes, i've looked at those, we should be using that for power boards
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:57 <rthc> ok, so, related to the issue of proper connectors is properly casing things up
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:58 <rthc> i'm not a very big fan of having a bunch of bare boards spread all over with wires coming out at random places
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:58 <rthc> so, using a backplane was sounding rather appealing to me
#rhrt: 07/11/09 15:59 <rthc> basically we'd have a 20 or so pin connector on the back of every board, plugging into a backplane.  the front of the board would have all external connectors on it, preferably with a faceplate of some sort which screwed into a box
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:01 <rthc> we could go many routes with the backplane, from making it a completely dumb bus, to putting the powersupply on it, etc.
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:02 <rthc> the external connectors would be decently hefty, like db-9 and other connectors that can take abuse.
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:02 <rthc> ... so, thoughts?
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:03 <kleinjt> I'm researching eurocard racks
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:04 <rthc> yeah, that's been a holdup for me, finding an enclosure and boardguides and faceplates
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:04 <rthc> but in general, you think it's a decent idea to look into?
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:05 <rthc> in terms of backplane connectors, there are quite a few nice ones to choose from, even ones that can carry quite a bit of current.
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:06 <kleinjt> yes, I think backplanes would be neat
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:09 <kleinjt> i don't see a way of avoiding the wiring mess with the motors though, each motor still needs to be plugged into a victor which is plugged into a fuseblock
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:11 <rthc> i think the wiring for the motors is a lesser concern.  all things considered, it wasn't awful.
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:15 <kleinjt> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vero-Eurocard-backplane-17-64-way-sockets-single-height_W0QQitemZ300324521676QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45ecbc86cc&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#ebayphotohosting
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:16 <kleinjt> some assembly required, bring your own boardguides..
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:16 <rthc> wow, that's nice.  though i'm not sure i want to be putting 96-way connectors on every board
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:18 <kleinjt> I was imagining all boards would be build from a template which had the eurocard connector and the can hardware on it already
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:18 <rthc> yes, but i mean in terms of physical assembly...
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:18 <rthc> also, i can't possibly see us using more than 30 pins
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:19 <kleinjt> I can't either, but going with a popular standard gets us possibly cheaper hardware
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:19 <rthc> but that is a standard connector.  the alternative would be making  our own backplane, which would be hard.
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:22 <kleinjt> KiCad looks interesting
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:23 <kleinjt> http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Mini_tutorial
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:24 <rthc> i'll take a look into it later, right now i'm more interested in trying to find an enclosure
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:24 <rthc> since that backplane is really tempting
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:26 <kleinjt> mmkay, I'm going to try making something with kicad this weekend
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:26 <rthc> Vero seems to sell board guides adnnd such, but no enclsoures
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:46 <kleinjt> WM1019-05-02 costs about 2000% as much anywhere other than allied electronics, which is out of stock
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:47 <kleinjt> http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?SKU=6470469&MPN=WM1019-05-02
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:47 <kleinjt> http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/QUEST_TECHNOLOGY/647-0469.PDF
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:48 <kleinjt> which may not be ideal, but it was $13
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:48 <kleinjt> or $150-$250 anywhere else
#rhrt: 07/11/09 16:49 <kleinjt> funny, the google cache of the page which has it in stock shows the price as $220
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#rhrt: 07/11/09 19:54 <tommost> auchter: Which of the CANopen communication models were you thinking we'd use?
#rhrt: 07/11/09 19:54 <tommost> I'm thinking producer/consumer.
#rhrt: 07/11/09 20:32 <rthc> i need to dive into canopen a bit more, but stuff like motor-controller velocity setting and returning current speed will be done using PDOs, while stuff like flashing the uC will be done using SDOs
#rhrt: 07/11/09 20:38 <rthc> the standard canopen profiles are maintained by IEC, so they cost some cash
#rhrt: 07/11/09 20:38 <rthc> but we can either make up our own profiles, or try to find data on the existing ones
#rhrt: 07/11/09 20:38 <rthc> http://www.elmomc.com/support/manuals/MAN-CAN402IG.pdf
#rhrt: 07/11/09 20:38 <rthc> that's essentially DS402, which talks about motor control
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#rhrt: 07/12/09 12:08 <rthc> microcanopen looks interesting
#rhrt: 07/12/09 13:42 <tommost> It's not open source...
#rhrt: 07/12/09 13:59 <rthc> it's pretty well described...
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:00 <rthc> there's not much decent canopen code for the at90can anyway
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:12 <tommost> I'm still kind of confused about why we need CANopen.
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:12 <tommost> It reminds me of JAUS.
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:13 <rthc> need is a bad word.
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:15 <rthc> really, what we need is a sane high-level protocol to use for communication
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:15 <rthc> if i don't have to make one up, all the better
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:20 <tommost> This seems like a very complex high-level protocol.
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:20 <rthc> hey, i'm open to suggestions
#rhrt: 07/12/09 14:26 <tommost> I don't really know what it needs to do, specifically.
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:08 <rthc> node addressing, a consistent way of indicating what each message is meant to do, &c.
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:09 <tommost> What's wrong with tlv?
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:11 <rthc> that doesn't solve the addressing issue.  length is kind of redundant because of the DLC field in the can message.  i suppose we could use a tag of some sort.
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:11 <tommost> I thought that CAN messages have addresses.
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:11 <rthc> no, can doesn't specify that.  hence things like canopen, cankingdom, etc
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:12 <tommost> Then what is that number that messages are prioritized on?  It's 31 bits or something?
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#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:13 <rthc> the first field is an identifier
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:35 <tommost> How does that differ from an address?
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:36 <rthc> addressing is not specified in the standard
#rhrt: 07/12/09 15:43 <tommost> >.<
tommost: 07/13/09 02:00 >< QUIT : Remote closed the connection
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wahlnj: 07/14/09 21:25 >< PART #rhrt :
andy753421: 07/14/09 21:28 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
wahlnj: 07/15/09 00:01 >< JOIN : #rhrt
wahlnj1: 07/15/09 00:42 >< JOIN : #rhrt
wahlnj: 07/15/09 00:57 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
wahlnj1: 07/15/09 01:11 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
wahlnj: 07/15/09 01:12 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/15/09 01:14 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/15/09 01:21 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
wahlnj: 07/15/09 01:32 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
andy7534211: 07/15/09 02:02 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/15/09 02:03 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
andy7534211: 07/15/09 03:24 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
andy753421: 07/15/09 03:31 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/15/09 04:12 >< QUIT : Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
sled: 07/15/09 09:15 >< JOIN : #rhrt
sled: 07/15/09 09:15 >< PART #rhrt :
tommost: 07/15/09 18:25 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/15/09 20:20 >< JOIN : #rhrt
#rhrt: 07/15/09 21:30 <kleinjt> sled?
#rhrt: 07/15/09 21:33 <tommost> As in snow?
#rhrt: 07/15/09 21:35 <tommost> I think that a snowmobile would be more fun to robotify.
#rhrt: 07/15/09 21:36 <kleinjt> 09:14 -!- sled [n=sled@hau59-2-82-236-250-241.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #rhrt
#rhrt: 07/15/09 21:36 <kleinjt> 09:15 -!- sled [n=sled@hau59-2-82-236-250-241.fbx.proxad.net] has left #rhrt
#rhrt: 07/15/09 21:36 <tommost> Ah.
#rhrt: 07/15/09 23:31 <kleinjt> I don't think sled was shadghost, he would be one of the three isps in alaska: gci, acs, or att
#rhrt: 07/15/09 23:31 <kleinjt> that or uaa/uaf.edu
#rhrt: 07/15/09 23:41 <rthc>  dogsled
#rhrt: 07/15/09 23:41 <tommost> Well, that's autonomous on its own.
tommost: 07/16/09 00:46 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
andy753421: 07/16/09 01:41 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
andy753421: 07/16/09 02:54 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/16/09 03:22 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
tommost: 07/16/09 19:17 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/16/09 20:10 >< QUIT : wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
kleinjt: 07/16/09 20:10 >< QUIT : wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
tommost_: 07/16/09 20:10 >< QUIT : wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
rthc: 07/16/09 20:10 >< QUIT : wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
killer_robot: 07/16/09 20:10 >< QUIT : wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
tommost: 07/16/09 20:12 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost_: 07/16/09 20:12 >< JOIN : #rhrt
kleinjt: 07/16/09 20:12 >< JOIN : #rhrt
rthc: 07/16/09 20:12 >< JOIN : #rhrt
killer_robot: 07/16/09 20:12 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/17/09 01:34 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
tommost: 07/17/09 18:06 >< JOIN : #rhrt
roshanakzm: 07/18/09 01:13 >< JOIN : #rhrt
roshanakzm: 07/18/09 01:13 >< PART #rhrt :
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andy753421: 07/18/09 03:36 >< QUIT : Remote closed the connection
andy753421: 07/18/09 03:36 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/18/09 03:55 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
andy753421: 07/18/09 22:19 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/18/09 22:35 >< QUIT : Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
andy753421: 07/18/09 22:36 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/18/09 23:40 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
andy753421: 07/18/09 23:59 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/19/09 03:23 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
#rhrt: 07/19/09 13:53 <rthc> we've got one of these, right?
#rhrt: 07/19/09 13:53 <rthc> http://web.schroff.de/catalogue/catalogue.do;jsessionid=199B07F528B52CF1AA3621D0D82A3DFE?upTree=0&OID=0000000000006f150003003a&favOid=0000000000006f150003003a&act=showBookmark&lang=us&catId=US
#rhrt: 07/19/09 13:53 <rthc> http://web.schroff.de/catalogue/catalogue.do;jsessionid=199B07F528B52CF1AA3621D0D82A3DFE?upTree=0&OID=000000000001a3bf0001003a&favOid=000000000001a3bf0001003a&act=showBookmark&lang=us&catId=US
#rhrt: 07/19/09 14:12 <kleinjt> we do?
#rhrt: 07/19/09 15:17 <rthc> yeah, the first one, i think
#rhrt: 07/19/09 15:17 <rthc> remember nick bought some crazy rack thing?
tommost: 07/19/09 16:04 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/19/09 20:31 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
tommost: 07/20/09 01:35 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
andy753421: 07/20/09 03:16 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost_: 07/20/09 04:55 >< QUIT : wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
tommost_: 07/20/09 04:56 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/20/09 09:40 >< QUIT : "Leaving."
tommost: 07/20/09 18:34 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/20/09 23:59 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
tommost_: 07/21/09 13:37 >< QUIT : wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
tommost_: 07/21/09 13:38 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost_: 07/21/09 13:39 >< QUIT : Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
tommost: 07/21/09 13:39 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/21/09 14:21 >< QUIT : wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
tommost: 07/21/09 14:23 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/21/09 15:52 >< NICK : tommost_
tommost_: 07/21/09 15:52 >< NICK : tommost
tommost: 07/21/09 19:46 >< QUIT : Nick collision from services.
tommost: 07/21/09 19:46 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost1: 07/21/09 19:47 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/21/09 19:47 >< NICK : tommost_
tommost1: 07/21/09 19:47 >< NICK : tommost
tommost: 07/22/09 00:55 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
rthc: 07/22/09 01:14 >< QUIT : "Lost terminal"
chtr: 07/22/09 01:15 >< JOIN : #rhrt
chtr: 07/22/09 01:24 >< NICK : rthc
tommost: 07/22/09 18:34 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/23/09 01:06 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
killer_robot: 07/23/09 08:37 >< QUIT : Remote closed the connection
tommost: 07/23/09 20:28 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/24/09 01:55 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
tommost: 07/24/09 19:21 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/24/09 22:48 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
tommost: 07/24/09 22:52 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/25/09 05:17 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
tommost: 07/25/09 16:21 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/26/09 03:46 >< QUIT : Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
tommost: 07/26/09 03:54 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/26/09 05:48 >< QUIT : Remote closed the connection
tommost: 07/26/09 05:49 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/26/09 11:47 >< QUIT : Nick collision from services.
tommost1: 07/26/09 11:47 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost1: 07/26/09 11:47 >< NICK : tommost
tommost: 07/27/09 08:34 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
tommost: 07/27/09 18:03 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/27/09 22:41 >< QUIT : Nick collision from services.
tommost1: 07/27/09 22:41 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost1: 07/27/09 22:41 >< NICK : tommost
tommost: 07/27/09 23:48 >< QUIT : Nick collision from services.
tommost1: 07/27/09 23:48 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost1: 07/27/09 23:48 >< NICK : tommost
#rhrt: 07/28/09 00:55 <tommost> Thoughs on CANOpen?
#rhrt: 07/28/09 00:58 <rthc>  unnecessary
#rhrt: 07/28/09 00:58 <tommost> That matches my thinking.
#rhrt: 07/28/09 00:59 <rthc> cool, we're on the same page
#rhrt: 07/28/09 01:02 <tommost> Have you picked a physical form-factor yet?
tommost: 07/28/09 01:44 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
andy753421: 07/28/09 16:43 >< JOIN : #rhrt
andy753421: 07/28/09 17:21 >< QUIT : Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
tommost: 07/28/09 19:50 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/29/09 01:28 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
tommost: 07/29/09 18:48 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/30/09 01:12 >< QUIT : "He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back."
tommost: 07/30/09 01:26 >< JOIN : #rhrt
tommost: 07/30/09 01:26 >< QUIT : Remote closed the connection
tommost: 07/31/09 20:29 >< JOIN : #rhrt